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Post by flameheadshero on Apr 1, 2016 12:50:17 GMT -5
The way I see it, Max, is that there's a lot of maybes involved. Maybe Elma would push Lin, maybe she wouldn't. Personally, from the Elma that we see throughout the game, I don't think she would do that. This is the person who kept giving Lao the benefit of the doubt even when she knew he was a traitor and was almost always talking about trying to reach a peaceful compromise with her enemies. I don't think having the scene I described as an option would seem wrong or unnatural - I believe Elma would at least hear Lin out before doing anything. I think if you want to talk about what the characters would logically do in any given situation, no one ever had to pull a gun in the first place. Lao gets ejected from the Prog Ares and is clearly beat up badly. It would've been a matter of just walking up to him and grabbing him so you could search his person. In fact, your avatar walks right up to him and Lao doesn't do anything because he's already beaten.
But I do agree that we are at an impasse. It wasn't really my intention to make you agree with me anyway; I really just wanted to let people understand where I'm coming from since I felt the general negative opinion of that avatar moment was being conflated with the typical overblown gamefaqs whining about Lao, Lin and mary sues. Just wanted to put out the perspective of someone who didn't really like how the scene played out but wasn't a "complainer." I will say that I can see your points and why you like how the scene played out and I respect that.
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Post by Primulus on Apr 1, 2016 13:46:56 GMT -5
I really just wanted to let people understand where I'm coming from since I felt the general negative opinion of that avatar moment was being conflated with the typical overblown gamefaqs whining about Lao, Lin and mary sues. Just wanted to put out the perspective of someone who didn't really like how the scene played out but wasn't a "complainer." I apologize, I should've chosen my words more carefully.
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Post by flameheadshero on Apr 1, 2016 14:27:44 GMT -5
I really just wanted to let people understand where I'm coming from since I felt the general negative opinion of that avatar moment was being conflated with the typical overblown gamefaqs whining about Lao, Lin and mary sues. Just wanted to put out the perspective of someone who didn't really like how the scene played out but wasn't a "complainer." I apologize, I should've chosen my words more carefully. No problemo. I'm glad we can discuss differing opinions amicably.
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Post by Wolfe on Apr 1, 2016 15:24:47 GMT -5
I'm with flameheadshero, I think a hypothetical choice in the cutscene could easily have allowed the player to stand by Elma without altering the outcome of the scene. A tweak to the script like flameheadshero suggested would fit the style of many of the other prompts throughout the game. I was fortunate enough that the moment was not out of character for myself, but I was also surprised that I had no choice. It altered the emotion of the moment a bit, because the game validated my feeling on the situation instead of simply giving me token input on how the scene played out. With that said, I suppose it amplified the emotional impact of the scene, which might have been the reasoning behind making it involuntary. Wait, people hate Lao? That's a first. ...He's just a normal man who went a little nuts because of his anger at the government for killing his family, and Lin understood that it was possible to talk reason into him. The complainers' logic seems flawed to me. ...While I understood his anguish, I think his anger was misdirected and he ended up hurting people that didn't deserve it. People that were suffering just like he was. Lao is my favorite character in the game, and the most relatable by a wide margin. My assumption is that people who flat out hate him or can't begin to understand his motivations must not have any personal experience with depression or mental illness, or if they do, they're not being very honest with themselves. He wasn't just angry, and he wasn't just suffering. Everyone aboard the White Whale suffered loss, but grieving is not the same as depression. Depression is irrational and all-consuming. I'm surprised Lao even got as much work done as we hear about from other characters. His apathy for his duties, his withdrawal from friends and comrades, his irrational decisions, and ultimately his willingness (in a depressed state of mind) to harm the citizens of NLA in retribution for what the ECP did are all realistic portrayals of mental illness. What Lao did wasn't right, and his sudden turnaround after you defeat him isn't rational, and that's the point. I figure that in addition to having been defeated by your party -- which is deflating enough when your cause is fueled in part by self-hatred -- what changed his mind is how Lin (and Cross) proved that he didn't only have friends on Mira, but people who love him. That Lin loves him enough (platonically) to risk her life to spare him in spite of everything he did, which he probably won't ever forgive himself for doing. He never had an ironclad resolve to carry out his plan because he isn't just a one-dimensional traitor, but a more complex character who felt he had lost all hope. He felt like he was all alone, until Lin showed him that he wasn't. Lao blamed himself for his family's death as much as he blamed others. Depression can be defined as hatred turned inwards. One may ask why he never killed himself, but not everyone comes to that solution, for a variety of possible reasons. Mira is a pretty incredible place, so as a Pathfinder I'm sure he tried to cope by exploring and enjoying the scenery whenever he wandered off. I would probably do the same. From my own personal experience, I'll attest that Lao surely hates himself more than any players hate him as a character. That's a big part of what drives his behavior.
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Post by ancientrune on Apr 1, 2016 15:25:20 GMT -5
its a difficult slope because of just how hard it is to pinpoint what they were attempting with Cross, FHH is in the camp that believes that cross should be looked at as our rendition of what cross should be, ie ourselves playing though him. I dont think that how monolithsoft was looking at him though as there is likely a lot about cross that we have no idea about
also inregards to wolfs statement, One may ask why he never killed himself, when speaking of lao, he actually explains why right before the chapter closes.
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Post by Wolfe on Apr 1, 2016 15:33:31 GMT -5
also inregards to wolfs statement, One may ask why he never killed himself, when speaking of lao, he actually explains why right before the chapter closes. It's been a while since I played Ch.11, so I've forgotten what you're referring to. What did he say? I can look up a video but I'd have to go hide it from my wife (she's up to Ch.9).
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Post by ancientrune on Apr 1, 2016 15:40:01 GMT -5
also inregards to wolfs statement, One may ask why he never killed himself, when speaking of lao, he actually explains why right before the chapter closes. It's been a while since I played Ch.11, so I've forgotten what you're referring to. What did he say? I can look up a video but I'd have to go hide it from my wife (she's up to Ch.9). basically he said if he died he would just be put in a new Mim anyway, i dont think it was exactly related to killing himself though
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Post by Wolfe on Apr 1, 2016 15:41:46 GMT -5
Right. I just watched it on mute and read the subtitles. Yeah, the existential issue with mimeosomes is another part of his torment.
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Post by ancientrune on Apr 1, 2016 15:47:25 GMT -5
i just watched too and it was in regards to killing himself
also i just wanted to say every time the game reveals more answers to my questions the more new questions I have. Thats the beauty of Xenoblade X.
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Post by DarknessLink7 on Apr 2, 2016 7:49:44 GMT -5
I'm with flameheadshero , I think a hypothetical choice in the cutscene could easily have allowed the player to stand by Elma without altering the outcome of the scene. A tweak to the script like flameheadshero suggested would fit the style of many of the other prompts throughout the game. [...] Lao is my favorite character in the game, and the most relatable by a wide margin. My assumption is that people who flat out hate him or can't begin to understand his motivations must not have any personal experience with depression or mental illness, or if they do, they're not being very honest with themselves. He wasn't just angry, and he wasn't just suffering. Everyone aboard the White Whale suffered loss, but grieving is not the same as depression. Depression is irrational and all-consuming. I'm surprised Lao even got as much work done as we hear about from other characters. His apathy for his duties, his withdrawal from friends and comrades, his irrational decisions, and ultimately his willingness (in a depressed state of mind) to harm the citizens of NLA in retribution for what the ECP did are all realistic portrayals of mental illness. What Lao did wasn't right, and his sudden turnaround after you defeat him isn't rational, and that's the point. I figure that in addition to having been defeated by your party -- which is deflating enough when your cause is fueled in part by self-hatred -- what changed his mind is how Lin (and Cross) proved that he didn't only have friends on Mira, but people who love him. That Lin loves him enough (platonically) to risk her life to spare him in spite of everything he did, which he probably won't ever forgive himself for doing. He never had an ironclad resolve to carry out his plan because he isn't just a one-dimensional traitor, but a more complex character who felt he had lost all hope. He felt like he was all alone, until Lin showed him that he wasn't. Lao blamed himself for his family's death as much as he blamed others. Depression can be defined as hatred turned inwards. One may ask why he never killed himself, but not everyone comes to that solution, for a variety of possible reasons. Mira is a pretty incredible place, so as a Pathfinder I'm sure he tried to cope by exploring and enjoying the scenery whenever he wandered off. I would probably do the same. From my own personal experience, I'll attest that Lao surely hates himself more than any players hate him as a character. That's a big part of what drives his behavior. Great post, Wolfe. You really hit the head on the nail here, I think. I love Lao as a character, and he's my favorite character in XCX and scores quite high on my "favorite character of all time" list too. Yes, he deserves to atone for his crimes and if I was one of the NLA citizens I'd probably hate him for wanting us all dead... But since XCX is a game and we get to examine his character from the perspective of an observer we get to see all the depth to him. You can love a character and still think that their actions are wrong. I too wish that we had the choice flameheadshero suggested, just to give us the illusion of choice. I guess I'm lucky the choice Cross made matches with my own, but it's a bummer for the people who didn't wanna protect Lao.
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Post by flameheadshero on Apr 3, 2016 16:28:15 GMT -5
Lao is my favorite character in the game, and the most relatable by a wide margin. My assumption is that people who flat out hate him or can't begin to understand his motivations must not have any personal experience with depression or mental illness, or if they do, they're not being very honest with themselves. He wasn't just angry, and he wasn't just suffering. Everyone aboard the White Whale suffered loss, but grieving is not the same as depression. Depression is irrational and all-consuming. I'm surprised Lao even got as much work done as we hear about from other characters. His apathy for his duties, his withdrawal from friends and comrades, his irrational decisions, and ultimately his willingness (in a depressed state of mind) to harm the citizens of NLA in retribution for what the ECP did are all realistic portrayals of mental illness. What Lao did wasn't right, and his sudden turnaround after you defeat him isn't rational, and that's the point. I figure that in addition to having been defeated by your party -- which is deflating enough when your cause is fueled in part by self-hatred -- what changed his mind is how Lin (and Cross) proved that he didn't only have friends on Mira, but people who love him. That Lin loves him enough (platonically) to risk her life to spare him in spite of everything he did, which he probably won't ever forgive himself for doing. He never had an ironclad resolve to carry out his plan because he isn't just a one-dimensional traitor, but a more complex character who felt he had lost all hope. He felt like he was all alone, until Lin showed him that he wasn't. Lao blamed himself for his family's death as much as he blamed others. Depression can be defined as hatred turned inwards. One may ask why he never killed himself, but not everyone comes to that solution, for a variety of possible reasons. Mira is a pretty incredible place, so as a Pathfinder I'm sure he tried to cope by exploring and enjoying the scenery whenever he wandered off. I would probably do the same. From my own personal experience, I'll attest that Lao surely hates himself more than any players hate him as a character. That's a big part of what drives his behavior. This is a really good breakdown of Lao's character. Your explanation of how despair and depression consumed Lao is a theme that's also explored with sidequests in the game involving certain NPCs. Kind of a random tangent but it's also expressed in the lyrics of Black Tar: It's the tar taking over that came unexpected Hard to accept it Getting marked for death Seeing friends snatched and darkly possessed The tar inside stealing the body and breath Til only a shell is left In this case "Black Tar" would represent the depression and despair that Lao and others succumbed to. The song makes a lot of sense when you think of it that way. The reason I see "Cross" (It doesn't even appear as a default name) as my character is because of the consistent dialogue options throughout the game. When the game lets me choose my appearance, voice and name and is always asking me how I want to respond to something, I start to see myself as that character. I also see that as an intentional choice by the developers to have me feel that way because of how consistent it is. In most story missions and affinity missions, the camera will focus on your character's face when it's about to prompt you for a response. In fact, it does it so consistently that I was pretty much conditioned to expect a dialogue choice whenever there was a long pause on my character's face. And that's exactly what happens in Chapter 11. The camera shifts to your character's face and pauses for a moment. I was thinking "OK, I'm going to have a say here" and then... my character just goes off and does something on his own. But maybe it could also be that Cross is just the way they are for multiplayer purposes. There's no way to really know unless it comes from the developers' mouths but that's how I feel at the moment. Interesting how an avatar character can have different interpretations from different people on what they are meant to represent.
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Post by Wolfe on Apr 4, 2016 10:08:06 GMT -5
This is a really good breakdown of Lao's character. Your explanation of how despair and depression consumed Lao is a theme that's also explored with sidequests in the game involving certain NPCs. Kind of a random tangent but it's also expressed in the lyrics of Black Tar: It's the tar taking over that came unexpected Hard to accept it Getting marked for death Seeing friends snatched and darkly possessed The tar inside stealing the body and breath Til only a shell is left In this case "Black Tar" would represent the depression and despair that Lao and others succumbed to. The song makes a lot of sense when you think of it that way. I agree, I think it's a common theme for a lot of the story content. I had always wondered if Black Tar represents the tainted creatures (Chapter 6) or something to do with the Ghost race.
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Post by Primulus on Apr 4, 2016 21:16:05 GMT -5
This is a really good breakdown of Lao's character. Your explanation of how despair and depression consumed Lao is a theme that's also explored with sidequests in the game involving certain NPCs. Kind of a random tangent but it's also expressed in the lyrics of Black Tar: It's the tar taking over that came unexpected Hard to accept it Getting marked for death Seeing friends snatched and darkly possessed The tar inside stealing the body and breath Til only a shell is left In this case "Black Tar" would represent the depression and despair that Lao and others succumbed to. The song makes a lot of sense when you think of it that way. I agree, I think it's a common theme for a lot of the story content. I had always wondered if Black Tar represents the tainted creatures (Chapter 6) or something to do with the Ghost race. I think it's pretty interesting that Black Tar actually mentions "Ghosts" by name at multiple points, but with the implication that the "Black Tar" is even harder to fight than the Ghosts.
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